The Beast from the Depths of Chaos: Astro-Mythology & the Bush Gang

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/01/29/the_beast_from_the_depths_of_chaos_astro

01/29/08

12:17:00 am, Categories: Voices, 2723 words

The Beast from the Depths of Chaos: Astro-Mythology & the Bush Gang

"Death on a Pale Horse" by William Blake

www.jvbline.org

[Note: This article was written before the resignations of Ashcroft and Rumsfeld.]

With all that the Bush administration does or does not do, it is remarkable that no one in the progressive community has yet bothered to do an astrological analysis of the charts of its key members. Here, therefore, I remedy this appalling failure on the part of the progressive press. Whether you believe in astrology or not, this analysis should provide you with some interesting insights into the characters of and relationships between the members of the Bush crew.

I have focused here primarily on the effects of two planets: Pluto and Saturn, between the charts of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld (and to a lesser extent, Ashcroft).[1] Remarkably, there are an extraordinary number of Pluto and Saturn contacts between them.[2]

Mythological Meanings of Saturn & Pluto

Even if you are not knowledgeable about astrology, you may know about the mythological meanings of the Greek gods. Pluto was the god of the Underworld. Pluto, also known as the prince of darkness, governs the kingdom of the dead.[3]

While the planet Pluto is a tiny body and its existence was not confirmed until 1930 (and it was recently demoted to planetoid), taking about 250 years to circle around the Sun, it is considered to be the ruling planet of the sign of Scorpio, which has been a recognized astrological sign for thousands of years.[4] Its a reasonable assignment, since the theme of both Pluto and Scorpio is the cycle of birth and death.

Pluto's father was Saturn, also called Kronos, the keeper of Time. Saturn, the second largest planet in the solar system, which takes almost 30 years to orbit the Sun, is the most remote of the seven visible planets. It was discovered in the 19th century. According to Greek mythology, Saturn overthrew his father, Uranus, by castrating him, and then ate his children, among whom were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto.

Jupiter, who was rescued by his mother, Rhea, made Uranus disgorge all of the other children.[5] Jupiter then exiled Saturn to Italy, where Janus gave him a home. There, Saturn introduced such widespread prosperity that his reign was remembered as the Golden Age, and the Romans celebrated this era each year at the end of December, with a festival known as Saturnalia.[6]

The interplay, thus, of Pluto and Saturn is rich with deep archetypal meaning. Pluto contacts are often ignored by astrologers as being generational influences, but as astrologer Liz Greene says, “if one takes into account Pluto's association with certain collective psychic energies, he has potentially a very powerful effect on individual man since each person must make his own pact with these collective energies.”[7]

In my experience, close Pluto contacts between the inner planets [8] within the chart of an individual indicates some highly unhealthy and destructive propensities. A Saturn/Pluto combination is one of the deepest and darkest. I have found this combination more than any other in the charts of serial killers,[9] as well as in those of persons with multiple personality disorder, who are not criminals but whose basic sense of self has been shattered by severe early traumas. It seems as though Saturn/Pluto can work either to break the spirit or irretrievably harden it.

While a number of the members of the Bush crew contain hard Pluto or Saturn aspects to other planets in their charts,[10] none of them contain internal Saturn-to-Pluto contacts. However, remarkably, the charts of Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney contain numerous Pluto/Saturn contacts between them: that is, Pluto in one person's chart connects to Saturn in the other person's chart, or to inner planets (called the “personal planets”) in various combinations.

Pluto/Saturn contacts are not often found between colleagues, since the contacts will generally precipitate an immediate power struggle in which both people can sense that it is desperately important who wins this battle because it will decide who in the end controls the relationship.[11]

But, if Saturn and Pluto pair up, such contacts indicate, to put it simply, a criminal enterprise, each person providing a prop to one or more other persons darkest ambitions and pursuits. As Liz Greene says, “Pluto is Saturn's only real friend in the planetary hierarchy, although, as the saying goes, with a friend such as this, one has no need of enemies.”[12]

The Gates to the Burning Ground: The Dark Saturn/Pluto Bond

Greene writes:

“The usual quality...with a Saturn-Pluto contact is obsessiveness. There often seems to be a carefully organized and deliberate movement toward some self-destructive experience...” [13]

Where Saturn/Pluto contacts occur within an individual's chart, the person will be drawn towards such behaviors of his own accord. Where such contacts occur between two people's charts, the planets will join energies and create a self-fulfilling loop, not subject to outside interference or correction. As Greene explains, Saturn and Pluto have several things in common: they both “have an association with darkness, with destruction, and with the figure of Lucifer, the Dark Prince, or the Beast who symbolizes the depths of chaos.”[14]

Pluto represents transformation, but of a devastating kind. While Pluto may lead to transformation, it is always through some process of destruction. In other words, Plutonian transformation occurs out of the bones and ashes of destruction. The Nazi purification of Germany was a destructive, transformative Plutonian process.

When Pluto joins with Saturn, the result is ominous. Greene notes that “Saturn guards the entry to Pluto's realm for it is the [Saturnian] collapse of external values which leads eventually to the burning ground that Pluto symbolizes.”[15]

Bush's administration, more than any other in the history of the United States, manifests the collapse of external values (such as those which are traditionally Saturnian: the rule of law, and those traditionally Aquarian: civil liberties)[16] and the seemingly irreversible progress down the dark road to the burning ground of war. While Saturn considers itself as a protector, Pluto provides the impetus and the subject: death, terrorism, war. Thus, war/terror (on terrorism) in the name of self-protection.

Saturn/Pluto contacts exaggerate and amplify experience so that “it is blown up to mythological proportions” where something of “the magical or fated quality of collective experience creeps in.”[17]

Several members of the Bush crew have touted a sense of this fated quality, declaring their missions to be from God.[18] The Leo placements of Pluto in the charts of Bush and Cheney increase this sense of self-importance or greatness and the need to dominate. The several Cancer Suns (Bush and Rumsfeld) tie the sense of identity (Sun) to the home[land] (Cancer).

The fated quality of Saturn/Pluto also occurs within the Bush/Rumsfeld relationship. Rumsfeld's Sun/Pluto conjunction is tightly bracketed by Bush's Sun and Saturn in Cancer, with Rumsfeld's Pluto within a few degrees of Bush's Saturn. The contact creates a strong sense that the relationship was destined. It is a powerful bond, not easily broken, as was shown by Bush's unwillingness to ask Rumsfeld to resign after the Abu Ghraib revelations. Saturn (Bush) has a tolerance for, or even awe of, the acts (torture) for which Pluto (Rumsfeld) takes responsibility.

Both Saturn and Pluto are “trans-personal” planets, belonging to the outer rings of the solar system. They often involve areas outside of conscious awareness. Saturn/Pluto “seems intent upon driving the conscious personality into the burning ground with or without conscious consent and without help.”[19] Or, as Greene says at another point, “the individuals may be fully aware of [the] obsessive movement [of the contact] yet may not be able to control it.”[20]

When persons with internal Saturn/Pluto combinations resist the destructive pull of these energies and pretend that things are fine, lessons of pain and relinquishment increase. Ultimately, in order for Saturn/Pluto contacts to transform into something positive and productive, they must disintegrate what they create. Out of the ashes of destruction rises the Phoenix. People with Saturn/Pluto connections believe deeply in the rise of this Phoenix from the ashes. Its Armageddon, the Apocalypse, the Rapture, End Times. But the price for anyone within the reach of persons with such connections is far too great. Life itself may be brutally sacrificed.

In the end, persons who share a Saturn/Pluto contact will either stay far away from each other out of a subliminal awareness of the destructive forces they engender together, or, if their own personal charts drive them to covet the power of such forces, as Bush's and Rumsfeld's do, they will attract each other and work together to the destruction of others.

Bush & Rumsfeld

Rumsfeld's chart shows that he is ruthless, relentless, sadistic, brutal, and will drastically eliminate the unnecessary in his vision.[21] His Sun/Pluto conjunction, ruthless in itself, is squared to Uranus, which is a dangerous placement. Again, astrologers often view Pluto/Uranus contacts as generational and therefore undeserving of analysis. But in Rumsfeld's chart, the planet of identity, the Sun, is in contact with both of these outer planets: Pluto's dark forces combined with the Uranian need to be free of restrictions to pursue his experiments and innovations, no matter what, tied into his sense of self (Sun). In other words, this man is destructive and will not be stopped. His very identity is at stake.

Bush's chart shows ruthlessness as well. His chart contains a triple conjunction between Mercury, Pluto, and Venus in Leo. This combines the sign of rulership and power (Leo) with the planets of thought (Mercury) and relationship (Venus) and with the forces of darkness and destruction (Pluto).[22] Rumsfeld's Mercury is also conjunct the position of these three planets in Bush's chart, contributing his intellect to Bush's dark combo.

The Saturn/Pluto contacts between Rumsfeld's and Bush's charts only increases the brutality in either chart. Or, put yet another way, their own personal brutality contributes to and feeds the brutal acts they commit together.

But this is not all. The contact between Rumsfeld's and Bush's Suns and their respective Plutos and Saturns, connects the forces of identity and creation (Sun) in the sign of the home[land] (Cancer) with death, destruction, loss, deep pain, and grief (Pluto/Saturn). In other words, the connection provides a bridge for the energies of both Suns and the dark forces of Pluto/Saturn, fostering a massive amount of energy.

Where these exist within an individual's chart (which is not the case here), the individual will feel these things internally, but where they are found as contacts between the charts of two persons (as here), those who are subject to, in the care of, or under the authority of these persons are in extreme danger. Where those two persons hold the keys to a superpower, the danger is worldwide.

In sum, in all the charts considered in this article, Saturn is operating destructively in various combinations with Pluto and other planets that contribute to the malignant mix. The only solution to this destructive set-piece is its dissolution and isolation of its elements. In other words, these men must be removed from power.

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References and Notes

[1] Birthdates: George W. Bush, Jr. July 6, 1946, 7:26 AM EDT, New Haven, CT (AA/Quoted BC/BR, Astrodatabank); Donald Rumsfeld July 9, 1932, 5:40 PM CST, Chicago, IL (DD, www.stariq.com); Dick Cheney January 30, 1941, 7:30 PM CST, Lincoln, NE (AA/Quoted BC/BR, Astrodatabank); John Ashcroft, May 9, 1942, time unknown, Chicago, IL (DD, www.stariq.com).
[2] Bush & Rumsfeld have Sun to Sun/Pluto contacts, Mercury to Mercury/Pluto/Venus, Jupiter to Venus/Pluto/Mercury, Saturn/Venus to Mercury/Pluto/Venus. Cheney contributes an Aquarian Sun to the Pluto (Leo/Cancer) combinations, which create Sun to Mercury/Pluto/Venus. Ashcroft adds Pluto/Chiron to the Mercury/Pluto/Venus mix.
Rumsfelds Saturn in Aquarius is opposite Bushs Mercury/Pluto/Venus in Leo and trine (120 degrees) Bushs Neptune in Libra. It is also conjunct Cheneys Sun in Aquarius (and opposite Cheneys Pluto in Leo). Ashcrofts Mars in Cancer is quincunx (150 degrees) to Rumsfelds Saturn. Ashcrofts Saturn is conjunct Rumsfelds Mars in Gemini.
[3] Solange de Mailly Nesle, Astrology: History, Symbols and Signs, Leon Amiel Publisher, 1981, p. 165. (Hereafter Nesle, Astrology.)
[4] The Chaldeans of Assyria in the Middle East are usually considered the first to divide the sky into the twelve sections reflecting the calendrical relationship between the Sun and Moon. This was over 5000 years ago. Martin Seymour-Smith, The New Astrologer, Macmillan, 1981, p. 12. (Hereafter Seymour-Smith, New Astrologer.) See also, Francis Hitching Earth Magic, Morrow & Co., 1977, pp. 271-75. (Argues that the builders of Stonehenge and other megalithic sites in Great Britain of approximately the same era as the Chaldeans -- knew and practiced the principles of astrology . . . long before the system was formalized by the Egyptians or the Greeks.) The signs were developed out of the constellations. According to Parkers Astrology, there is evidence that the modern zodiac was in place long before the birth of Christ. Julia & Derek Parker, Parkers Astrology: The Essential Guide to using Astrology in Your Daily Life, Dorling Kindersley, Inc., 1991, p. 18.
[5] Nesle, Astrology, p. 177.
[6] Id. In Roman mythology, Janus was the god of gates and doorways, depicted with two faces looking in opposite directions. Janus and Saturn are often viewed as the same god..
[7] Liz Greene, Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil, Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1976, p. 188. (Hereafter Greene, Saturn.)
[8] By close contacts, I mean between Pluto and any of the inner, personal planets, such as the Sun, Moon, Venus, Mercury, or Mars.
[9] Ted Bundy had a Saturn/Pluto conjunction in Leo. Hitler had a Saturn (in Leo) square to an incredible Venus/Moon/Mercury/Mars/Neptune/Pluto rolling cascade conjunction across Taurus & Gemini. Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber, has Pluto in Leo sextile to Saturn/Sun/Uranus in Gemini. The Gainesville Killer, Danny Rolling, who is still on Death Row, has a Saturn/Sun (Scorpio/Gemini) quincunx & a Pluto/Moon (Leo/Pisces) quincunx.
[10] Hard aspects are squares (90 degrees), quincunxes (150 degrees) and oppositions (180 degrees). Conjunctions (0-10 degrees) can also sometimes be hard. Hard aspects bring out the worst energies of the planets involved. An aspect is an angle of arc between two planets around the circle of the chart that represents the plane of the ecliptic, or the apparent path of the Sun around the Earth. Favorable aspects are generally trines (120 degrees), sextiles (60 degrees), and sometimes conjunctions. How aspects are used by individuals, however, varies tremendously.
[11] Greene, Saturn, p. 191.
[12] Id., p. 141.
[13] Id., p. 142. Greene here writes about internal contacts.
[14] Id. p. 141.
[15] Id.
[16] Aquarius figures strongly in both Rumsfeld's and Cheney's charts.
[17] Greene, Saturn, p. 142.
[18] The hard Jupiter influence in some of these contacts also increases fanatical religious propensities. Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft all have hard Jupiter aspects. Ashcroft has a Jupiter/Neptune square: confused in his judgment, prone to religious fervor, difficulty distinguishing real from unreal. Bush and Cheney have Sun/Jupiter squares (an aspect shared with Fidel Castro), which indicate religious excess, tendency to exaggerate, poor judgment, and unrealistic expectations. Rumsfeld has a Jupiter/Uranus/Pluto combination: rebellious, radical thinker, fanatical, critical, pious, recklessly and innovatively brutal. See Seymour-Smith, The New Astrologer (cited above at footnote 4), pp. 147-48. Also see generally, James Braha, How to Be a Great Astrologer: The Planetary Aspects Explained, Hermetician Press, 1992.
[19] Id. at 143.
[20] Id. at 142. (About individual contacts.)
[21] Seymour-Smith, New Astrologer, p. 147.
[22] Pluto in Leo is about abuse of power. Pluto went into Leo in 1938 and was progressing into it through WWII. It remained in Leo for twenty years, longer than it usually remains in a sign, through the Cold War. Of course, not all people born in those years abuse power. This depends on what contacts the Leo-Pluto makes in the individual's chart.

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© 2004 Jennifer Van Bergen

Jennifer Van Bergen, J.D., is the author of The Twilight of Democracy: The Bush Plan for America. She is at work on a book about the characterization method she has taught for over twenty years, Archetypes for Writers: Using the Power of the Subconscious in Your Writing. She is a trained Shakespearean actress and has issued a CD of her "trauma survivor" music, some of which can be heard on her website. She can be reached at jvbxyz@earthlink.net. [Info taken from CounterPunch] Jennifer has a website: www.jvbline.org and a blog -for "creative" writers: http://archetypesforwriters.blogspot.com.

Transneptunians & World Events

Gene (email: ejohnson68@tx.rr.com) consented to my reposting his post on Transneptunians. I found it interesting and will perhaps comment on it later. JVB

Within the past decade a host of space objects have been discovered. At this point in time within the range of 1 AU to 1.3 AU there are about 4131 objects ( these are the Atens, Apollos and Amores).

In the 2 AU to 4 AU range there are 26 asteroids larger than 200 km.

There are 183 Centaurs and Scattered-Disk Objects ( these objects have a perihelia beyond the orbit of Jupiter and semi major axes inside the orbit of Neptune )

There are 1014 TransNeptunians - these objects have semi major axes beyond the orbit of Neptune and reside in what is known as the Kuiper Belt.

Now, among the TransNeptunians there are seven that are about the size of Pluto; Eris, Sedna, Orcus, Quaoar, Varuna Makemake, and EL 61.

What are we to make of all this? How does this change our astrology?

Until recently planet and asteriod discoveries came on our screens slowly, we could study them separately, compare notes, observe correspondences to events and methodically build a character profile of the body. That has all changed today. A dam has been opened and a flood of Bibical proportions is upon us.

On thing is clear, the world has never experienced a comparable mass movement of humanity it is progress today. According to the International Migration Organization there are about 200 million imigrants worldwide. "Globalization" is the driving force of these dislocations and is changing the the form and structure of nation states and economies. Multinational Corporations forming giant trading/manufacturing blocs now are the dominate political/economic forces on the planet. National boundaries still exist, but these exist mostly as mere formalities as people, goods and information flow freely across them and across the globe.

So, in one obvious way the chaotic swarm of recently observed space objects corresponds to the chaotic conditions on Planet Earth today.

Science, Collective Unconscious, & Astrology

Alain Stalder, a Swiss physicist, has posted a fascinating discussion on these topics on his blog: exactphilosophy.

I will comment more later.

Julienne from Chaos-Stars on Obama

From Julienne at Chaos-Stars:

"Pluto is the generational planet. Once upon a time, the cry was "Don't trust anyone over thirty!" -and the difference was Pluto. Those over 30 at that moment in history had Pluto in Leo - and those below, had Pluto in Virgo.

The Pluto in Leo generation - many, especially outside the US, had been born intowar, and into a world where many males had been killed - Pluto/death, in Leo-father/males.I remember Australia lost an incredible percentage of its men, and all around me were crying and damaged families.

I think there are still issues with Obama - with his Sun square Neptune, and Moon square Pluto.The giant abandonment issues can lead to control and power concerns - witness how he so easilyturns around and abandons people in his life who don't seem valuable any more, like his "white"grandmother, Rev.Wright, and his stands on various issues which he seems to turn on so easily -like off shore drilling, like nuclear, like campaign financing.

The Pluto in Leo generation has Pluto on Obama's Leo stellium and 7th angle.With his natal PLuto in Virgo, and Saturn in Capricorn, he can, if he becomes president,draw on those aspects of his own self to work through these Saturn-Pluto issues in theUSA for the coming years - jobs, health, financial and other hierarchies. Will he be willing to really transform those? - or will he remain beholden to the health insurancecompanies, the big corporations, Wall Street - all of whom helped to finance his campaign?With his Pluto in Virgo, he has applied what he learned as a community organizer who wastaught how to sign people up to vote, and he has used that skill to organize these people to support his candidacy. Can he return the favour, and find jobs and health care for theaverage Joe and Jill?

Americans are so vulnerable at the moment, and exhausted and depressed by the Bush-Cheney Mean Years, and the idea of a pure saviour is so appealing to many. With Obama's strongNeptune he can present as whatever anyone wants, but the problem is that none of those images may be strong enough to be consistent or to have depth. In addition, the idea of a saviour disempowers individuals. I am afraid that, if Obama becomes president, that whendisillusion sets in, people will be afraid to observe objectively, and will drift again intodenial and disillusionment. We need to empower ourselves, not worship at the feet of false gods.We all have to work together to ride the energy waves of Pluto entering Capricorn, and theUranus-Saturn upheaval."

Julienne's New Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos
Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST Live Stream WHRW.ORG

McCain's Chart

Well, I couldn't discuss Obama without discussing McCain. And my first reaction, looking at his chart was OMG! He doesn't simply have a Grand T-Square; he's got a DOUBLE Grand T-Square, even more massive and powerful than the Mystic Rectangle of the birth of our nation! But what a killer! I mean, it is NOT an easy thing and easily explains his tendency to rage.


The double T involves Jupiter in Sagittarius to Saturn in Pisces to Chiron in Gemini over to Venus in Virgo. The giant square shape of the aspects in the chart is open at one point because Venus does not square back to Jupiter. Rather Jupiter squares up to Neptune in Virgo (which is, however, in conjunction with Venus, thus bringing Venus into the giant square formation).

This also, of course, means that McCain has not two but three oppositions: from Chiron to Jupiter, and Saturn to both Venus and Neptune.

There also is an opposition that cuts across the midpoint of two sides of this giant square shape -- from Chiron to Venus and from Saturn to Jupiter.

McCain also has several nice trines thankfully somewhat softening the massive amount of hardship for him: from his Sun to Uranus (the Maverick element, surely) (I don't count the one to his node), from Mars to Uranus (Maverick again) and to Jupiter (expanding on the themes of wild warrior), and from Moon to both Venus and Mercury (be thankful for all blessings).

The issues involved in McCain's chart are too difficult to manage. Virgo is not usually a warlike sign. His three personal planets in Virgo would make him careful, sweet, domestic, reliable. The Mercury in Libra would make him fair-minded. Chiron in Gemini indicates a wound to the mind. Uranus should be somewhat tempered in Taurus -- or perhaps just erratically bull-headed or stubbornly eccentric? Saturn in Pisces probably brings form to the emotional content, Jupiter in Sagittarius (where it's sub-ruler) -- good, generous, philosophical, fun-loving. And so on.

While one could say the Mars in Leo is fired up, it is not warlike, and although Pluto in Cancer is not my favorite (a generation of secrets in the home?), again, it is not in itself bad.

It's the aspects! As I always say, it's the aspects! It's the angles between the planets that is what has made and makes things so hard for McCain. That he crashed three planes and didn't lose his wings is perhaps not surprising. What makes things hard for McCain is also what holds him together. But woe betide anyone who has to live or work with him!

Independence Day Astrology

Herein I comment on the previous post by Ray (posted with his permission).

Ray points out a few major aspects for the natal chart for July 4, 1776: Sun (13.19 in Cancer) square Saturn (14.49 in Libra) and Mercury (24.12R in Cancer) opposite Pluto (28.29 in Capricorn).

Pluto opposite Mercury

First of all, I have noticed that just because planets might not have been discovered at a the time the person was living, they still affect birth charts (and life courses). So the fact that Pluto (or Neptune or Uranus) were not discovered doesn't matter in interpreting the chart.

A Pluto/Mercury opposition causes tremendous pressure on communication. There can be two possible results, either with an either/or choice, or with an oscillation between the two, or with the two in sequence. The first possible result is complete suppression of communication. Absolute secrecy and silence. The stopper is put on the bottle and the bottle is put in a hole dug in the ground far away from the beaten path where it will never be found.

The second possible result is explosive communication, intense discourse going very deep into whatever the subject is (often dictated by the signs the planets are in).

Cancer is about protecting the home (the homeland) and one's loved ones. Capricorn is about work and achievement.

Oppositions are often push/pull things. Here the Pluto/Mercury opposition could mean a going back and forth on the issues -- first swinging to one side, then to the other.

Mercury in Cancer may cause thinking about how best to protect one's "home." Pluto in Capricorn -- well, Pluto is often about abuse of the subjects related to the sign it's in. The reason for this is not that Pluto is "bad," but that few can figure out how to use it because it requires one to go through hell and fire before arriving at any conclusion. I think of Pluto as like a Black Hole. It sucks everything into it, willy nilly.

More important than the fact that Mercury was retrograde (which I think is way overrated) is that Mercury and Pluto were BOTH retrograde, but since Mercury is faster, Mercury was actually backing away from the opposition (with Pluto chasing after it).

It would be interesting to see which went direct and how long they were mutually chasing after or running away from each other.

The Mystic Rectangle

And another thing about the Mercury/Pluto opposition is that it is part of a Mystic Rectangle aspect that involves Mercury, Neptune, Pluto, and Chiron. This means that Mercury is not only opposite Pluto but sextile Neptune, which is then opposite Chiron, which is sextile Pluto, forming a big rectangle that dominates the entire chart.

This also means that Pluto and Neptune are in trine and Chiron/Mercury are in trine. Neptune is 22.25 in Scorpio and Chiron is 00.00 in Aries. (In other words, there's a trine between Cancer and Aries, which is sort of unusual. Usually trines are between signs of like elements -- so normally, it would be Aries and Leo, or Cancer and Pisces. But because Chiron is right on the cusp, the trine crosses elements.)

And strangely, the same thing is true of the Neptune/Pluto trine: it's between Scorpio and Capricorn - crossing elements -- not sharing them.

What does this all mean? I could spend days analyzing it (and probably will). It certainly is a huge mix of things. I'll leave it unanswered for now, for future discussion. (Comments, of course, welcome.)

Saturn/Sun Square

The Sun/Saturn square is also, I agree, very important. Because Mystic Rectangles tend to dominate charts, and the Sun/Saturn square is not touched by it, the square may be less important. (And there are other important aspects in the chart, too -- a few other squares and trines, but we wont' go into them yet.)

Saturn tends to harshly restrict or put pressure on what it squares. Coming out of Aquarius, of which it is sub-ruler, it might have had the effect of shattering the Sun's sense of home. Mars and Uranus trining Saturn out of Gemini may have had the effect of increasing Saturn's shattering effect. Uranus buddying up with Saturn is pretty powerful and rambunctious. Mars trine, too, adds energy and drive to it.

About Pluto and Saturn Effects

I'm highly suspicious of any hard Pluto or Saturn effects in a chart. I have found them in the charts of the early prime players in the Bush Administration and found them to represent criminal doings, indeed even a criminal enterprise. When Saturn and Pluto are in hard aspect to each other, they are the stuff of Mafia.

Here, in our country's birthchart, Saturn and Pluto are NOT in hard aspect to each other, but they are in hard aspect to two personal planets (Mercury and, more importantly, the Sun).

With such combinations, I often find abuse of power and cruelty.

USA's Birthday a Bad Pick?

Ray Andrews wrote on alt.astrology.moderated@googlegroups.com:

I have read about how the founding fathers of USA were into Astrology.....especially Benjamin Franklin.

My question is why did they pick July 4, 1776 to sign the Declaration of Independence?

To me, it seemed like a bad day to sign because of Sun Square Saturn and Mercury retrograde in Cancer

The Sun is in alignment with Sirius which is said to be a powerful star.

but I don't think that it trumps Sun square Saturn

***

it would seem to me that planetary aspects are more important than fixed star alignments.

maybe USA's Sun-Sirius alignment and Sun square Saturn share a theme. It could be issue of pride, ambition as well as arrogance of a patronizing nature (how dare our nature we act like somebody else's parents because our culture is superior - views shared by many outside the USA)

Sirius * the Dog Star the Sun of the Sun the prime Sun of our Galaxy Ambition, pride, emotionality, fame, leadership, wealth, fires, drought, danger through impetuosity.
http://www.astrologycom.com/fixedstars.html#Cancer

a retrograde Mercury in Cancer, is not a good time to be signing documents....obviously when they signed the declaration of Independence,they didn't have all Americans in mind

the retrograde Mercury has an opposition to Pluto, but the founding fathers didn't know about the undiscovered Pluto at the time. But to me, this country can have emotional biases that adversely affect decisions as well as can be very suspicious,and distrustful of others who they might not see as patriotic because they question the government.

Ironically, USA was a country founded by people who rebelled against the ruling British government. If anything, back in those days, they could have been viewed as being unpatriotic or traitors to their sovereign nations.

the same with Sun in Cancer square Saturn in Libra which doesn't seem like they truly cared about justice when they signed the document.

Justice was very limited...I would say. Of course, conflict with authorities.

I would like to get some thoughts from others about this.

Raymond